Matthew Anderson, an assistant teaching professor in Islamic studies at Georgetown University, spoke about Christians in Egypt during Providence’s Christianity and National Security Conference in November 2019. The following is a transcript of the lecture.

Thank you Mark, and thank you to the Institute on Religion and Democracy and Providence magazine for hosting this very interesting conference. I’m aware that I think I’m the last speaker before lunch, which is a precarious position, so I’ll try to be as brief and painless as possible. I want to talk about Christianity in the Middle East, Christianity in Egypt in particular, Christian-Muslim relations, and several things I’d like to float out there for you in the few minutes I have.

One way of framing what I’m going to talk about is by reflecting on the last 20 years or so. There has been what we might call a new ecumenical phase in Christian relations. Many American Christians, who before the last two decades knew very little about ancient Christian communities in places like Iraq, Egypt, or Lebanon, have become increasingly exposed to and in relationship with these communities. Some might say the beginning of this new ecumenical phase started in the late 1990s. One indicator of this shift was the passing of the International Religious Freedom Act in 1998, which focused on religious persecution. 

But then, this relationship expanded as the U.S. became more involved in military conflicts in the Middle East—in Iraq and Afghanistan—and as radical Islamic terrorism rose to prominence, most recently in the form of ISIS. Over the last 20 years, we’ve seen a kind of new relationship forming, which has been a beautiful development. It’s amazing to watch how changing geopolitical realities can dissolve and evaporate what were perceived to be significant theological issues between modern Protestant American Christians and Orthodox or Catholic Christians in the Middle East. 

These relationships are interesting but it’s also important to realize that as these communities are getting to know one another they’re having differences. American Christians are still getting to know Coptic Christians, American Christians, and Caesarion Orthodox Christians. And we find out that we are actually different as well. And that’s important to underline.

As someone who studied Islam at a modern American university, this is a difference that I’ve had to negotiate. Typically in a modern American University, the Islamic religious tradition is approached with a measure of optimism, an attempt to be impartial, and an attempt to engage with the religious tradition on its own terms. That’s my training as an academic, and it’s one that I take into my work in the Middle East. Yet, I find I’m in negotiations and discussions with Middle Eastern Christians and they often don’t understand the approach I’m bringing to the Islamic tradition.

This is something I constantly work through with my friends from Egypt, Jordan, and other places. There’s a sense that they have a much more negative view of the Islamic tradition, and they read me as having an optimistic or positive view. 

One example of this occurred while I was sitting on a train platform in Alexandria, Egypt. The Islamic call to prayer played over the loudspeaker, as it does throughout the Middle East. I was with a dear Christian friend—a pastor and theologian—and I asked how hearing the prayer call made him feel. For many Westerners, Christian or not, the prayer call has a transcendence that can feel moving. That has been my experience. My friend responded that it did not feel good to him at all; instead, it felt oppressive. This is just one of those examples where we’re coming at it as Christians but with different perspectives.

Another example of this kind of difference that we find is that most Middle Eastern Christians typically do not have a positive view of Israel or its policies, whereas many American Christians do. I bring these examples to say we are still in the process of getting to know one another, and there are places where we can challenge each other, where we differ, and where we can hopefully learn from each other. I think this is the more mature approach than simply assuming because they’re Christians and we’re Chrsitians that we see the world in the same way. That’s not been my experience as one who spent a fair bit of time in the Middle East.

I want to talk then about how to think particularly about Christians in Egypt. I think some of these ideas could apply to Christians in other parts of the Middle East but I particularly focus on Egypt.  As Mark mentioned, I lived in Egypt for two years, from 2009 to 2011, teaching theology. It so happened of course that I was there during the Egyptian Revolution, which was a transformative experience for me. It motivated much of my subsequent academic work and studies. After my time in Egypt, I spent another two years in Amman, Jordan, researching the concept of blasphemy within the Islamic tradition. 

This has been my two major exposures, although I continually go back. I’m now working with the Center for Arab West Understanding based out of Cairo. Sometimes in the summer, we host seminars on Christian-Muslim relations engaging with Christian ministers and students as well as Muslim scholars and others. So, I continue a very active interest in Egypt. And, if you’ve tried to understand what is happening in Egypt you will notice it’s not easy to do, particularly understanding how Christians are experiencing this country. One of the things I tried to suggest is you need to recognize that there are conflicting narratives of what’s actually happening with Christians in Egypt. These narratives often conflict, they contradict, and it can be quite confusing. So, I want to very briefly interview a few of those narratives and then look at a few more details about what is happening with Christians. 

One of the narratives you’ll encounter is what we might call the “national and religious unity narrative.” This is very common within Egypt, if you spend time in Egypt or you’re reading Egyptians writing about Egypt. This is a very common narrative. The idea here is that Copts—or Christians in Egypt—and Muslims in Egypt basically get along pretty well. There are a few radical extremists in the country who are the real outliers causing all the problems, but at the core of the country, the majority of the country—both Christians and Muslims—get along relatively well. 

This is a national and religious unity narrative. The government promotes this narrative in most cases, the media promotes this narrative, and Christian and Muslim religious leaders promote this narrative. Many people in the streets believe it as well. When you interact with Egypt, you’re going to encounter this narrative because it’s quite prominent.

One of the issues with this national religious unity narrative, which claims that inter-religious relations between the two communities are fairly positive and strong with a few exceptions, is that it contradicts another narrative. This other narrative, which you might encounter particularly here in Washington, could be called the Coptic or Christian Diaspora narrative. This narrative is promoted mainly by Coptic or Christian people—sometimes political activists, writers, or bloggers—who often promote a much more bleak picture of Christian-Muslim relationships in Egypt. 

According to this perspective, Christians are consistently oppressed and persecuted. Far from being a bulwark of national unity, the government is often apathetic and, at times, complicit in the plight of Christians in Egypt. 

These are two very common narratives you’ll hear, and they differ in marked ways. A third narrative you’ll be exposed to is what I would call the political Islamist narrative. 

This perspective states that Egypt is a Muslim-majority country—about 90% of the population is Muslim. Islam is the national religion, as indicated by Egypt’s constitutional tradition. According to this view, religious minorities should be respected, but they must also recognize their place in Egyptian society. From this perspective, some Christian expectations of how things should work in a country that is legally Islamic and where the majority population is Islamic are unrealistic.

At the same time, in the eyes of many political Islamists, Copts or Christians are not really the main problem. However, a problem does arise from these hosts when it’s perceived that Copts and Christians are completely and totally supportive of a national government that is repressive toward Egyptian citizens. This is where backlash emerges. 

For instance, in 2013, when former President Mohamed Morsi was removed by General Abdel Fattah el-Sisi, the Coptic Church quickly expressed support for this move. Almost immediately, the Grand Sheikh of Al-Azhar, the highest Islamic cleric in Egypt, and Coptic Church leaders were seen on stage with el-Sisi, the new leader of Egypt. This image was perceived by many Islamists—and perhaps even by average Muslims—as a betrayal, with Copts seemingly aligning themselves with the government. This created another dynamic at play.

A final narrative I want to suggest you’ll encounter is the International Human Rights narrative. Many organizations in Washington, such as Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch, prioritize this narrative. According to this perspective, Copts are persecuted at times, but so are many other groups. All of these people are victims of an oppressive regime that seeks to maintain political and economical control over the country.

To understand Egypt, you have to sift through these different narratives. Realize that the sources you engage with often come from one perspective or another. Realize these narratives contradict each other and can be confusing, but it’s worth working to sift through it.

I don’t want to adjudicate all these narratives. At some level, depending on where you stand and the evidence you consider—or that someone brings to a particular issue or incident—each of these narratives has a certain plausibility. There are, undeniably, examples of real Christian persecution in Egypt. At the same time, there are also examples of the religious and national unity narrative playing out that are not small either.

So, my encouragement to those working in this field, such as in international religious freedom or international relations intersecting with religion, is to be aware of these different narratives. This is true also in other Middle Eastern countries. Take these narratives into consideration in your research and work.

Having said that, let me close by addressing more specifically the narratives that I think you’ll encounter. Let me just say a few things more concretely about the nature of Christians’ experiences in Egypt. It’s important to recognize that there is no single, monolithic experience of Christians in Egypt. Their experiences differ radically based on several factors, such as socio-economic strata, the province they live in, and even the village within that province. It’s really important not to conjure up the idea that there is one kind of Christian experience in Egypt because that will not make sense once you start getting exposed to the country.

For example, I attended an event this summer, an opera, called “Egypt Is the Way,” which was put on by a very wealthy Christian philanthropist in Egypt. He produced this musical about the Holy Family in Egypt, an important part of Christian spirituality in the country. The event was attended by numerous dignitaries, including several members of the Egyptian cabinet. Pope Tawadros was present, and President Sisi even provided a written message to be read to the assembled Christians. 

This was an example of the religious and national unity narrative. These were very wealthy people who have a lot of power in Egypt. This is not a more beleaguered group of Christians living under threat in villages, although there are many Christians like that in Egypt. One of the most famous examples is the Sawiris family, which controls massive parts of the Egyptian telecom industry and certain construction entities as well. Some of the richest people in Egypt, and they are Coptic Christians. 

Another famous example is Boutros Boutros-Ghali, who served as the General Secretary of the United Nations from 1992 to 1996. Again, he was a Coptic Christian. 

That is one side of the story. On the other side, there are Christians who are discriminated against, persecuted, and, in some cases, directly attacked by various elements within Egyptian society. The point is that we must move away from thinking about one monolithic Christian experience in Egypt. Instead, we must recognize a diversity of experiences that vary according to socio-economic strata, provinces, and even individual villages.

Despite this diversity of experiences, I think it’s important to note a pattern that has been intensifying over the last 10 years—perhaps over the last 20 or even 30 years, depending on how you gauge these things. There’s a pattern of dramatic and violent attacks on Christians and Christian institutions, which must be acknowledged for any realistic assessment of the challenges faced by Christians in Egypt. 

Let me give you a few examples:  

– In 2011, the bombing of the Al-Qiddisin Church in Alexandria killed 23 people and injured 90 people.  

– In 2016, a bombing at the Botroseya Church in Cairo, a suicide bomber,  killed 29 people, with 50 more injured.  

– In 2017, there were simultaneous Palm Sunday bombings: one in Tanta, in the Delta region, which killed 30 people, and another outside St. Mark’s Coptic Cathedral in Alexandria, which killed 17 people.  

– In 2017, an attack on Christian pilgrims headed to a monastery in upper Egypt, where gunmen shot and killed 28 Christians traveling by bus to the monastery.

These are massive traumas for Christians in Egypt. A realistic account of what has happened in Egypt can’t lose sight of that. Suicide bombings, other types of bombs, and gunman attacks on buses in various parts of Egypt are very significant and, of course, tragic and devastating to Christians in Egypt.

When thinking about the experiences of Christians in Egypt, it is necessary to hold all these factors in mind: the multiple narratives, there’s not one single monolithic experience, and the undeniable reality of such devastating attacks. At the same time, I think we can be confident that the vast majority of Egyptians—including the Egyptian government—are horrified by these attacks. I think most Egyptians, both Muslims and Christians, look at those attacks and are horrified and disgusted. Nonetheless, there are elements in society that are producing those attacks. Those elements must be taken seriously and not minimized.

I could go on, as there is much more to discuss, but I want to conclude with one final point before opening the floor for questions. 

You may have noticed that in my discussion of these attacks, I did not cover other incidents that also occur in Egypt but often make international media headlines. For example, in villages across Egypt, controversies over blasphemy or religious defamation can arise. Another recurring issue involves church buildings. While it is not true that churches cannot be built in Egypt, they are being built, and you can see massive churches under construction in Cairo. However, in certain locales, church building can cause a problem, what I would term as sectarian incident or conflict. 

Another source of sectarian conflict arises from romantic or sexual relationships between Christians and Muslims in villages. These relationships often provoke real problems, which can escalate and spiral into much larger conflicts. One famous example of this is the Al-Kosheh massacre in 2000, in which 20 Christians were killed following sectarian tensions.

In analyzing these issues, I find it useful to distinguish between sectarian incidents, along the lines of which I just described, and what I classify as the direct jihadist attacks, which are the bombings and shootings I described earlier. It’s important not to lump all these incidents into a single file if we want to understand the complexities of the situation for Christians in Egypt.

I have benefited tremendously from my experiences with Middle Eastern Christians, even as I continue to explore these very complex and sometimes painful situations. With that, I’ll stop here and see if there are any questions you have.

Q&A

Question: Hello, my name is Annie May. I’m a theology student with the King’s College in Manhattan. Can you talk more about Christians in the Middle East, specifically about their perspectives on the Israel conflict as opposed to Christians in the West? Can you explain more about what the Christian minority experience is like in regards to the Israeli conflict in the surrounding countries?

Answer: Yeah, it would be a wonder if someone would have taken over that comment. It is one of those areas. It flared up a few years ago at a conference here in Washington, where some of you were probably there. 

It’s hard to say exactly what is driving Middle Eastern Christians, in many cases, to a position of critical assessment. Certainly, in the case of Palestinian Christians, we can imagine what that is. My experience has been it’s much more widespread than just Palestinian Christians. There would be a general sense that something’s going wrong here. What exactly that means, I’m not pretending to know at this point, but certainly, that is a very common sentiment, and I think one that needs to be taken seriously if we’re going to take seriously Christians in the Middle East. 

I think it’s important to take what they say seriously and without coming to any kind of dramatic conclusions about it. It’s a complicated and tense environment, there’s no question about that. That has been my experience living in different parts of the Middle East. That contrast is very notable between a lot of American Christian discourse on this question and a lot of Middle Eastern Christian discourse. I think trying to encourage an honest kind of conversation around that seems to be a meaningful thing to pursue. 

Question: Hi, I’m Daniel Strand. Thank you for your talk. I have an assumption that is informed by American media and friends that I have from the Middle East. My assumption is, when I’m looking, at least—nothing scholarly, just whatever media and anecdotal evidence I see—the idea is that authoritarians are the friends of Christian minorities. I realize this could just be a parochial American view of things, but it’s an assumption that I, at least from the Middle Eastern Christian friends that I’ve talked to, hear. 

For instance, I find Bashar al-Assad to be one of the most morally repugnant people in the region. Yet, all my Syrian Christian friends will defend him absolutely. This is an American view, but what do you think of all this sort of assumption? I think I’m probably not alone in holding it.

Answer: Yeah, I think this is actually an area where we’re finding that there are some differences between how American Christians relate to authoritarian situations and how Middle Eastern Christians do. I think there’s actually a lot of work that needs to be done on what we could call a political theology of Christian minorities. That is, how are Christians thinking about government in these types of situations? 

Some of them are so extreme—for example, in Syria, the situation is so desperate it’s practically a war zone—it’s hard to make quite clear what can be understood about that situation. But you have other Christians in other parts of the Middle East who also face a kind of minority status. Yes, the overall perception is that Christians are friends of these states and their governments. In Egypt, I think that’s pretty much the case. 

You do have different phases of Egyptian-Coptic interactions with the government that are worth noting. For example, the previous Pope Shenouda did do some things that got under the skin of the government. Sometimes, it matters how Christians in Egypt relate to the Coptic or Christian diaspora because the Coptic Christian diaspora is oftentimes very critical of the situation. That can create a dynamic. 

I would say that this is an interesting question. It’s one that probably hasn’t been explored as fully as it might be in trying to understand how Christians understand their relationship with the government. In part, that’s because there are things at stake for them, but also because of how Christians in the U.S. should think about that relationship. I think both of those things still need a lot of illumination. 

So, all that to say, yes, that is the perception. I think in most cases, it’s pretty close to the reality. Exactly why that is the case and exactly how American Christians might think about that are things that could use further exploration. 

Question: Thanks for the great presentation, I have two related questions. First, going back to your previous questions, do you have any thoughts on the enduring legacy in the fact that oftentimes Christian minorities are going to lead—and I suspect this is true in Egypt as well—some of the entrepreneurial projects? Over the cracks of Arab nationalism, is there something that happened there? Are they doing a lot of Christian nationalist projects or ideas? 

The second question is on your topic of narratives. There’s another narrative I sometimes hear about Christian minorities in Muslim-majority countries and it’s the very pernicious narrative that the Christians were allies of the colonial powers. The reason they’re being attacked now is a hangover of colonialism. I’ve heard this both in the rhetoric of more secular left academic sources in the West and also in Islamist discourse in a number of these countries. Do you encounter that in the Egyptian context?

Answer: Yes, those are two very complicated questions. On the question of the relationship of colonial presence in the Middle East to these Christian communities, I think that is not something that should be too quickly minimized. In the Egyptian case, I do think one can make a correlation between, say, the British government and its policies within Egypt, and the way it related to Christians and to Muslims. 

There are important questions there. There has been a fair bit of scholarship on these points. There is a question about whether or not this exacerbated the relations between Christians and Muslims within these countries or to what degree that was the case. I would have to speak more on that. 

I think Arab nationalism and Christians across the Middle East have been very much engaged in promoting that way of thinking about the region and offering that kind of regional unity. It’s not surprising that this was a way of trying to get beyond the Christian-Muslim tensions by promoting a broader identity that all could equally claim. 

Question: Speaking to those perspectives about what it’s like to be a Christian in the Middle East, and basically what the religious discussion is like within those communities, are there any specific news sources coming from those perspectives that you believe represent their arguments accurately?

Answers: Yes, I think in the case of almost all journalism or media, it’s good to take multiple sources and try to sift through them as best as we can. That’s no different here. I’ve worked with the Center for Arab West Understanding, which has a media database called the Arab-West Report. It tries to offer very detailed and objective analysis of things, but it doesn’t publish things on a daily or weekly basis. It’s more like case studies of a particular incident. 

For example, one of the ones I worked on was a village in Upper Egypt where there was a blasphemy case. The goal was to peel back the layers of complexity. What I found almost always is that the situation is never quite as simple as people initially present it. There are exceptions to that, but in many cases, you’ll find a lot of complexity that’s very difficult to untangle. The best you can do is represent the different perspectives. 

The Arab-West Report is one I’d recommend. I’d have to think about others I find particularly reliable. There’s a unique attempt with these publications to go beyond the kind of spinning that different sources may do for particular reasons. That’s true in Egypt and in most places we encounter. Certainly, we want to avoid sources that are engaged in deliberate attempts to obfuscate. 

Working in the academy, you do have access to this body of literature. Some of it is v ery fine-grained very detailed and it’s not even realistic to expect to have that kind of information about many things. I wish I had an easier answer but the Arab-West report is one example.